A beautiful conversation between Maturana and von Foerster, 1998

A conversation is broken into three parts. My random notes/comments:

1. Truth and Trust:

  • Procedure vs. Externality = Trust vs. Validity. Maturana: What operations/procedures of making science should we accept in order to make the results valid? (Around 12.00)
  • Foerster: “2+2 = 4” is not a truth, it is a rule. It is valid because it is the rule of the game called mathematics, but it is not an ‘external’ truth (16.20)
  • Scientist are searching for the rules of the game. But the searching procedure itself already includes findings in itself (Maturana). The result is a multiverse (a world of views) in a sense that different searching procedures give rise to different and valid universes.(19.58)
  • Biology and all the history of culture shapes our choices about procedures/operations which we use when we are searching for the rules of the game, i.e. do science, see above

2. Future To Be Determined:

  • Shift in perspective for education: if the world that we live in arises from the interplay of us living together [and educating each other], then which way we should interact [and educate] in odrer to live in the world that we want to live in? (Maturana)
  • Education: a procedure of co-invention
  • Foerster: legitimate question is a question which has no answer (yet); illegitimate question is the one to which the answer is known. Education should deal only with legitimate questions, but now it mostly deals with illegitimate ones…
  • Maturana: Education should give rise to the generative process leading to creation of “knowledge”
  • Education is creating a universe in which we want to live [together]
  • There is a social network game Poietic Generator, which allows for the users to “participate in real time in the process of self-organization at work in the continuous emergence of a global picture”. Users create the picture collectively, by relating to each other and seeing what other users create. Imagine that users live in a Poietic Generator…. In this case you will have a picture described by education as generative process of the world where users (we) live.

3. The Matrix that Embeds;

  • To ask a question is not enough. The form or context of the question will influence the form of the answer too. So there is a sort of “structural coupling” between the question and the answer…
  • Scientists are those who are taking things apart, they are separating elements; Systemisists are those which put things together, connect them;
  • A matrix of elements and their relations embeds both
  • Kornovsky: “extended connectedness”
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